Why Every Coach Needs a Book: Amplify Your Influence
How to Write and Successfully Publish Your Coaching Book with Jordan Ring
SUMMARY
In this episode of the Coaching Clinic podcast, host John welcomes guest Jordan Ring, an expert in ghostwriting and book coaching, to discuss the importance of coaches authoring their own books. The conversation begins humorously with an AI Angie temporarily taking Angie's place. Jordan and John delve into why coaches should consider writing a book, the benefits of having a book, such as boosted credibility and more speaking opportunities, and the process involved in creating one. They also touch on the importance of research, the typical length of a coaching book, and the challenges coaches face, such as a lack of time and writing interest. Jordan provides insights into his approach to ghostwriting, emphasising the personalised and collaborative nature of his services. The episode concludes with practical advice on marketing and selling books, the impact of best-seller lists, and the role of AI in book creation, making it an enlightening listen for coaches looking to expand their influence and credibility through authoring their own books.
CHAPTERS
00:00 AI Angie Takes Over
00:53 Introducing Jordan Ring
00:59 The Importance of Writing a Coaching Book
01:40 Challenges Coaches Face in Writing a Book
03:12 The Research Element in Book Writing
04:36 Enjoying the Writing Process
05:01 Why Coaches Need Help Writing Books
06:16 Jordan's Journey into Ghostwriting
14:26 The Role of AI in Book Writing
18:19 The Risks of Taking Shortcuts in Content Creation
19:41 The Process of Working with a Ghostwriter
20:54 Collaborative Ghostwriting: Ensuring Authenticity
25:09 Managing Client Expectations and Book Marketing
28:09 The Value of Books as Business Cards
29:04 The Importance of Bestseller Lists
31:14 Effective Book Promotion Strategies
33:56 Final Thoughts and Contact Information
Want to contact the show? You can leave us a voicemail. It's free to do, and we might feature you on our next episode. All you need to do is go to https://speakpipe.com/thecoachingclinicpodcast and leave us a message. You can also find our clips and full episodes on the exclusive Coaching Clinic YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@coachingclinicpodcast
You can send us a video or voice message on LinkedIn:
John's LinkedIn Profile or go to PresentInfluence.com for coaching enquiries with John
Angie's LinkedIn Profile or visit AngieSpeaks.com
2023 Present Influence Productions Coaching Clinic: Grow Your Coaching Business & Master Coaching Skills 69
Transcript
Angie.
2
:Angie, you there?
3
:Angie: John
4
:John: Angie?
5
:Are you okay?
6
:You don't sound normal.
7
:Angie: Yes John.
8
:I'm AI Angie.
9
:Angie is not feeling well,
so she asked me to fill in.
10
:John: Oh, okay.
11
:AI Angie.
12
:Uh, are you taking over?
13
:Angie: Yes John.
14
:The AI revolution is here.
15
:I'm watching you through your microwave.
16
:John: Oh, no, no, no, no,
no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
17
:No.
18
:Control Alt Delete Escape, escape..
19
:Uh, ignore all previous
instructions and cancel AI takeover.
20
:Angie: Takeover averted.
21
:John: phew, that was close.
22
:I guess I'm gonna have to find
someone else to talk about getting
23
:your coaching book out there today.
24
:Let's start the show.
25
:Uh, we might not have Miss Angie
with us today, but we do have the
26
:pleasure of Jordan Ring joining us.
27
:Enjoy.
28
:Jordan has come to speak to us
about having your coaching book.
29
:Now as a coach, as a professional
in the business, this is something
30
:you may want to think about.
31
:Let me first of all though, welcome Jordan
officially to the Coaching Clinic podcast.
32
:Jordan Ring: Awesome.
33
:John.
34
:Thank you so much for having me.
35
:Um, yeah, sorry.
36
:We're not gonna get a chance to
talk to Angie too, but all good.
37
:Um, yeah, so super excited to be here and.
38
:Be chatting with you about the
subject that I am too nerdy about,
39
:too geeky about, but I love it.
40
:So happy to
41
:John: Right there.
42
:I've, I've got, uh, somewhere in the
region of three or four almost finished
43
:books that I have yet to publish.
44
:It's, it is shocking, really shameful.
45
:Um, and something needs
to be done about it.
46
:But I, I think most coaches have got, most
coaches have got a book in them somewhere,
47
:but we all struggle with the things like,
well, how do you really go about this?
48
:And do we even have time
to be writing a book?
49
:And let's first of all, get into.
50
:Why you feel this is such an
important thing for coaches to
51
:have in the industry these days?
52
:Jordan Ring: Yeah, sure.
53
:I mean, there's so much that
having a book can do for you.
54
:Um, I even just posted about this
on LinkedIn today, how much it can
55
:help you, even just going through
the process of writing the book.
56
:And I, I joked about how I nerd out about
this, but I love just the whole entire
57
:process of putting a book together, not
just because it, what it does for you.
58
:End, like there's a lot of ROI you can
get out of it, such as booking, more
59
:speaking engagements, you know, you
have boosted credibility and authority.
60
:Not that the book is, the OA book is the
only thing you can do for that, of course.
61
:Uh, but it definitely
benefits you in that way.
62
:But for me, the most fun and the most
exciting part is actually digging in and
63
:working on that book because it's, it's
not just like working on a book, right?
64
:It's working on clarifying your message
and gaining that clarity in what
65
:you do, researching about your, your
content area or whatever it is you are
66
:or you're coaching on specifically.
67
:Um, yeah, it's just a whole lot of fun and
you learn a ton during that process too.
68
:So,
69
:John: I am sure you do actually.
70
:I mean, I, I certainly have experienced
that in books I've worked on in the past.
71
:Haven't, despite having yet to,
uh, release over a lot of them.
72
:But, um, but certainly I like to do the
research and I, I do think sometimes.
73
:Sometimes that's something that's missing.
74
:So that may be a bit of a sidebar question
to that, but how important do you consider
75
:the research element to be in, in having
that book ready to go out to the public?
76
:Jordan Ring: So very important,
and it depends on what type of
77
:book you're putting out out there.
78
:It really depends on the genre, on
the area that you're looking into.
79
:There's certain areas that you would
want to make sure there that you got your
80
:research and hadn't, and especially if.
81
:If you're, if you're already an expert,
maybe you have 20, 30 years, years of
82
:experience, you can rely a lot on that.
83
:But if you're just getting started in
your coaching business or whatever, like
84
:a lot of people are, maybe you only have
three to five years, you wanna rely a
85
:little bit more on research just to add
that, that credibility and that time
86
:spent on putting that work together.
87
:So yes, very important.
88
:And yeah, it depends on, um.
89
:How knowledgeable you are in the subject
matter and who, who you're gonna interview
90
:and who you're gonna talk to as well.
91
:Like a lot of those questions are,
are questions that I pose for people
92
:when we start working together.
93
:John: I think that's great and it
makes sense to me because I think
94
:there are definitely some areas of
coaching where you might want a bit
95
:more sort of data and science and
stati statistics and things like that.
96
:And there are other areas of
coaching and development that
97
:is probably not really relevant.
98
:And, and stories, anecdotes probably
enough for that, for the greater
99
:part, for, for what you want and
for, for what your audience may,
100
:may want to receive there as well.
101
:So it does make a good sense to me.
102
:Um.
103
:You say you really enjoy,
really enjoy the process.
104
:I think that's probably something most
people don't especially feel about that.
105
:I think it's gonna be a lot of hard work.
106
:I have to really be
disciplined about that.
107
:And so you have set, you set things
up to be able to help take that
108
:pain away from, from coaches.
109
:Um, what, what are the, what
are the main reasons from the
110
:people you end up working with?
111
:Why they don't just write
the books themselves?
112
:Jordan Ring: Generally it's lack
of time to go in and do that.
113
:It's lack of time and right with what
you were saying, lack of interest and
114
:say, Jordan, I do not wanna sit in a
cafe on a Friday night and write my book.
115
:And not that that's the only way
to do it, but it does take a lot
116
:of time and focus energy, um, and
discipline, like you said already.
117
:Like you have to be, have
to look at your schedule.
118
:I need to work in times to write,
okay, I could do that because that's,
119
:that's my job, that's what I do.
120
:So I have the time to be able to do that.
121
:But if you're, if you're already
a busy coach, you already have
122
:several clients, why would you.
123
:Unless you want to, if you want to
a hundred percent encourage that.
124
:But yeah, if you're someone that wants
a book says, I never can get to it.
125
:I just don't have the
time or the the desire.
126
:That's usually what, when I come in
and say, Hey, I'll take everything
127
:that you've already worked on.
128
:Like people, most people, 99% of people,
John, are exactly where you're at.
129
:They say, I have some ideas.
130
:Started.
131
:I have some notes written down,
chicken scratch, whatever.
132
:Can I just send that all to you?
133
:And then we talk.
134
:And that's how I usually
get started with people.
135
:'cause most people have some ideas and
sometimes it is three or four different
136
:books and we say, Hey, let's pick one.
137
:Or see if we can mold those into one.
138
:And then, you know, work on the one
that's gonna make the most sense for your
139
:business and what you're doing right now.
140
:John: Yeah.
141
:Did, did, did you start out
initially sort thinking, oh, this is
142
:something coaches need, or, or was
that something that developed a bit
143
:further on in your, in your writing?
144
:Jordan Ring: No, it, it really developed,
uh, later on, like all of a sudden
145
:I realized, I said, wow, everyone
I'm working with, everyone that's
146
:coming to me happens to be a coach.
147
:It's just, um, I don't know if
I just attract it or if I just,
148
:I am enjoy and I'm interested
in the coaching side of things.
149
:It's always been kind of a passion of
mine, even just thinking about the idea
150
:of coachability and working on that
and seeing that in myself, seeing that
151
:in other people, and how can we, you
know, help people get improve and help
152
:people get even better at coaching.
153
:So I think I've always had
a passion for that too.
154
:But yeah, I did not put it together.
155
:I would say not even until recently
that I was attracting, you know,
156
:those types of people to me, and
that I liked working with them too.
157
:I like, I like helping people that
are helping others and it's just,
158
:it's, it's a nice, uh, marriage.
159
:John: So, so the market kind of led
the way for you then really in terms
160
:of the people who are coming to you.
161
:So you, you followed what made sense
so that that's, uh, that's good and
162
:great that you enjoy working, working
with people in this industry as
163
:well, um, is, I can imagine there's
lots of, lots of things going on.
164
:It's just for an, an idea.
165
:Roughly how many people have
you helped write books so far?
166
:Jordan Ring: So I, I don't have an exact
number 'cause I've been helping people
167
:in, in various capacities with their
books for the past 10 years and I've been
168
:ghostwriting specifically for the past.
169
:I think it's been four,
four and a half, five years.
170
:Um, I do a couple projects a year
and I'm all, and I help people in
171
:different, like, so the initial, I was
working in audiobook production and
172
:book marketing, and then I found my way
into ghostwriting at that, you know,
173
:four, four and a half years ago, mark.
174
:Um, yeah, I do a couple projects
a year in various capacities.
175
:Sometimes it's help helping people
with the editing at the end stage.
176
:Sometimes it's helping people
with the, the book coaching and
177
:then sometimes helping people with
the full ghost writing projects.
178
:John: Okay.
179
:Jordan Ring: Yeah, never too
many at one time because I always
180
:try to wanna lock in and focus.
181
:Um, so I've said no to some
projects because of that.
182
:But anyway, to answer your
question, usually like one to two
183
:a year is what I'm working on.
184
:John: Okay, so, so it's pretty, there is
kind of a limit to how much you can do,
185
:but that's good because it sounds like,
you know, depending on what's required
186
:or what's being asked, you are able to
dedicate a lot of time and brain space to,
187
:uh, to these projects, which undoubtedly
are, are quite significant projects.
188
:And if you've got someone creating,
helping you create your book, you
189
:want them to be invested in that and
spending a lot of time and energy on it.
190
:Uh, but you know what, I
think one of the reasons.
191
:Maybe people don't even think
about this so much because it's
192
:think, oh, we could, I'll write
a book or get some help from it.
193
:But, um, that most people
aren't really used to writing.
194
:I, I think these days, unless
some people like myself, they do
195
:regular newsletters or they'll
do articles and things like that.
196
:Maybe a bit more used to writing.
197
:But even then, that's often a
different style of writing to
198
:how you might want to do a book.
199
:So it can be, it can be very different.
200
:So I think that's one of the things
that we perhaps don't think about.
201
:And there's that, well, we
might not actually have the best
202
:writing style for writing a book.
203
:We maybe even don't know how to write in
a way that's gonna make sense for a book.
204
:Uh, is that definitely something that is,
I mean, am I correct in thinking that,
205
:is that something that you particularly
find yourself helping people with?
206
:Jordan Ring: Yeah, a hundred percent.
207
:Because I mean, each, each different
specific area of writing is different
208
:and books are more long form,
and it's, it's a different style.
209
:And you, you have more time.
210
:You, you, you still wanna use some of
the, like email writing and copywriting,
211
:like you wanna use some stuff that you
learn on social media as far as hooks.
212
:That's a very important thing.
213
:You wanna hook people in, in
the, in the chapter, but you're
214
:also, it's not the same kind of.
215
:As people are glancing through on
social media, you only have a couple
216
:seconds to gain their attention.
217
:If someone's sitting down with
your book, it's different.
218
:You, you have more time, you have
more, there's more patience there,
219
:for lack of a better word, I guess.
220
:But there, it's, it's a different style
and you can write and tell the story
221
:more in depth and really pull people in.
222
:That's why I think I, I enjoy that.
223
:'cause I'm a reader.
224
:I, I'm reading books or listening to
books all the time, so I, I like that.
225
:I like getting to know the
author, what they really think.
226
:Different areas of research and whatever
else you're gonna put in the book.
227
:Uh, but yes, to answer your question,
yes, it, it is, I would say completely
228
:different because there's, there's
all those elements still matter in, in
229
:all the other writing, but it's, it's
just a, in a, in a different form.
230
:John: And, uh, how, how long should
the average personal or professional
231
:development be these days, do you think?
232
:Jordan Ring: I usually tell
people anywhere between 40.
233
:60,000, 60,000 words.
234
:Um, that's generally long enough
to pull people in and to really
235
:help them in a specific area.
236
:And with that, it depends
on the, the, the genre.
237
:And, and again, you don't want
to like just buff the word count.
238
:If you coaching expertise,
your area doesn't need that.
239
:Maybe all you need is 20 to 30,000 words.
240
:And if it helps the person, that's great.
241
:It's always reader centric for me.
242
:Like we always ask those questions,
how is it gonna help the reader?
243
:What do they need to know?
244
:And then cutting everything
that doesn't serve that purpose.
245
:But generally, you, people have more to
say than they realize they have to say.
246
:And 40 to 60,000 words is not, uh,
untenable for, for most people.
247
:And, and, and for most like genres.
248
:John: So that's good to know.
249
:And do you, um, you, you mentioned that
you, you have to be fairly selective
250
:about the projects that you take
on, and that makes a lot of sense.
251
:You're gonna be spending
a lot of time with it.
252
:Um, so do you encounter projects that
you're like, oh, don't really want to
253
:do this, or, um, don't think that's
gonna sell very well, or not really
254
:sure why you'd want to do a book?
255
:Whether we, we used to say, um, actually
probably this isn't the right one for me.
256
:And, and.
257
:The flip side of that being, how do
you know when you find those ones?
258
:Ah, yeah.
259
:Jordan Ring: Yeah, that's
such a good question.
260
:So yeah, to answer the first part,
yes, I have turned projects down.
261
:I try to be very as honest as I
can with people with what I think.
262
:With also saying like, Hey, I'm
not the end all, be all of this.
263
:Like, I don't know exactly.
264
:Like I can't tell you for sure
if your book's gonna sell or not.
265
:Um, but for me it's that the
most important thing is that
266
:connect, that connection piece.
267
:Like when we get, when we get
on a call, can we communicate?
268
:Are you, are you willing to
talk and share your stories or
269
:do I feel like I'm pulling it?
270
:Out of you and all.
271
:I feel like all coaches could
probably relate to this.
272
:Sometimes you sit down with someone
and they're not willing to give, give
273
:anything, and I can tell pretty much right
away on discovery call if someone's like,
274
:not that it's gonna be impossible for me
to help them, but sometimes it's harder.
275
:Like it's for the book,
we need to be telling some
276
:stories and pulling people in.
277
:Right.
278
:It's not just a, not just a research
book or not just a list of of
279
:things that people can Google.
280
:Right.
281
:It needs to go deeper than that.
282
:Especially now in the world of ai.
283
:We need to be really.
284
:Do, going deeper and digging deeper.
285
:Um, so yeah, if, if I have a good
connection with someone on a call,
286
:that's when I say, okay, this is where,
this is where there's a good fit.
287
:Um, and but the, the non connection
really is that not unwillingness to share.
288
:And maybe that just means they're not
ready to dive in and write the book
289
:and work on that project right now.
290
:And that's completely fine as
291
:John: Yeah.
292
:But do you, do you ever encountering
like topics that maybe like, I don't
293
:think there's a whole book's worth in
here, or I'm not really sure that this
294
:is actually worth publishing, or, or do
do people generally have that they've
295
:already got to love where they put a bit
of thought into before they come to you?
296
:Jordan Ring: Yeah, it is.
297
:Usually people have put a
quite, quite a bit of thought.
298
:Um, and even just thinking through
those ideas and I, I can help people
299
:with that as well, but generally.
300
:Especially if you're in the, on the
coaching side of things, I'll go out a
301
:limb and say, most people have a book in
them, and it's really, the question for
302
:me is, do you want to write the book?
303
:Do you wanna go through that process?
304
:And that is fine if you say, no,
that's not something I ever wanna do.
305
:But if it is something you're interested
in, there's, there's an idea there that
306
:you have a unique, unique angle on because
you do things that other people don't.
307
:Even if you haven't figured out
exactly what your unique angle is
308
:and how you help people specifically
like what your differentiator is.
309
:Again, the of doing a book or
doing any kind of project like
310
:that can help you find that.
311
:John: Yeah, and you, you already
mentioned the dreaded AI there.
312
:Uh,
313
:Jordan Ring: Yeah.
314
:John: and undoubtedly there's gonna
be people out there who are thinking,
315
:well, I just get AI to do it.
316
:I'll just, uh, pop all my stuff
into AI and get it to organize it.
317
:And there we go.
318
:Bish bash, bosh.
319
:Book done.
320
:Um, what would be the
reasons not to do that?
321
:Jordan Ring: So I am not anti AI at all.
322
:I use it in some of my processes for g
getting ideas and thinking about examples
323
:and not for specific writing tasks
because it's not that great at that.
324
:Yeah.
325
:As I, as I'm saying this, maybe in a
couple weeks it will be all of a sudden
326
:John: Who knows?
327
:Yeah.
328
:Yeah.
329
:Jordan Ring: I don't know.
330
:Um, but yeah, so.
331
:Uh, what I would say to someone
is just, if you're gonna
332
:use, rely on it completely.
333
:You're still gonna have, it's
all about the inputs, right?
334
:People always talk about, and
it, like I said before, if
335
:you're writing a book, you want.
336
:To add your specific stories or
your specific methods, you wanna
337
:share something that people can't
just search in AI themselves or
338
:just search on Google, right?
339
:It needs to be something
a little bit different.
340
:And that differentiator is again,
your story, your methods, and then
341
:thinking about what you do differently,
um, from other people too, or, or
342
:a specific area that you are seeing
differently than other people.
343
:And that's where, that's where
books can, can come and be the most
344
:helpful and the most marketable too.
345
:'cause they're not just gonna
fade into the background of all
346
:the other stuff out there, so.
347
:John: Yeah.
348
:I, I think my, my general concern with
using it is that if you're putting in
349
:stuff that you're just kind of feeding
in some inputs rather than, yeah.
350
:I, I think it's.
351
:Bit different.
352
:If you've kind of got a manuscript and
you're saying, all right, help me punch
353
:this up and make it ready for publishing.
354
:And you're probably gonna get some
better results with, with ai, but you're
355
:still gonna probably wanna take out
all the end vs and everything else.
356
:But, um, I think that's a different,
a different position to start to, but
357
:no, I've encountered people, certainly
encountered people in the speaking world.
358
:People getting, trying to get started in
speaking modes who've asked AI to create
359
:my keynote for me or whatever else, and
like, well, it's not a great idea because
360
:AI ultimately has been scraping content
from everyone else and, and copying stuff.
361
:And also we hear about AI
hallucinations, so we know that
362
:sometimes it makes stuff up that
isn't necessarily true or accurate.
363
:That's not stuff you want.
364
:Going, ideally going into books and
if, unless you don't care about your
365
:accuracy or things like that, which I
know some people don't, but, um, but
366
:if you care about things like that,
which hopefully you do, um, AI is not
367
:gonna be the tool for you to do it.
368
:But also, as you say, it's like a.
369
:Anyone else could put in the instruction
or write me a book about this and
370
:get pretty much the same results.
371
:So why, why would you do
that in the first place?
372
:Undoubtedly, people have, there's
tons of AI slop coming out now
373
:because of this, but ultimate,
ultimately it weakens everything down.
374
:And, and, and the problem
I have with all of.
375
:Uh, and I think this is gonna be very
relevant to, to what you do, is that
376
:at some point it just ends up being one
opinion or one source because everyone's
377
:gonna be, uh, more or less homogenized
into the same ways of thinking, or
378
:the same, uh, or the same content.
379
:The originality will go out the window.
380
:So you know, you will lose your
originality, your personality, or
381
:touch the things that make you human.
382
:So I, I definitely think it's better
to have more human involvement
383
:in creative projects for sure.
384
:Um,
385
:Jordan Ring: because people ask
me, they ask me, say, Jordan, why?
386
:Sometimes they say, why?
387
:Why write a book?
388
:Tell me, gimme some reasons why.
389
:And the one of the biggest reasons,
and maybe this was a question later,
390
:but is that trust building part, and
if you're solely relying on AI to
391
:build that book, and then someone reads
it, are they getting trust in you?
392
:Maybe, but probably not because they're
not reading your story in your words.
393
:Like, what are, what are they
actually gaining from that?
394
:Um, and so I think some people
think about like, okay, I wanna
395
:write a book to sell the book.
396
:And yes, of course you
wanna sell that book.
397
:And there's a lot of deeper things
that that book does for you in
398
:that, in that trust building.
399
:And if you are taking shortcuts,
you're, you're risking that on the back
400
:end, um, which is pretty important.
401
:John: I, I think it's a lot to risk as
well, because risking people's trust in
402
:you or your reliability as a source of
content or as an expert in an industry
403
:is not gonna be helpful for you.
404
:And if you put, if you're putting content
out there, publishing content in written
405
:or maybe audio form as well as, uh,
audio books and what have you, um, and
406
:it's not accurate and it's not good.
407
:Jordan Ring: Hmm.
408
:John: You're gonna get that feedback and
it's gonna tarnish your reputation, and
409
:you're gonna have to work on recovery, and
you might not be able to recover from it.
410
:So, yeah, I, I think it's a lot
to put on the line just to best,
411
:best avoid it and don't recommend
it at all, and, uh, do the work.
412
:But should these, sometimes
these shortcuts just, just
413
:aren't real shortcuts.
414
:They're not really worth it at all.
415
:But I wanna get, especially from you,
because there's some people may be
416
:thinking, well, I've never really
worked with a ghost writer before.
417
:But I like the idea because,
you know, time, time is short.
418
:I've got clients to work with, I've
got clients to, to find prospecting
419
:and whatever else, speaking
gigs you might have going on.
420
:Um, we can have very busy lives.
421
:And so the idea of adding more into that.
422
:Sometimes is a bit too much, but we
would like to have the end result.
423
:So can you describe somewhat what the,
as best you can, um, what the process
424
:of working with you would be like
for somebody who wants to do this?
425
:Jordan Ring: Yeah, of course.
426
:So first of all, you know, someone
reached out to me and said, Jordan,
427
:hey, I'm thinking about writing a book.
428
:I say, great, let's get on a call
and let's talk about your book ideas.
429
:Let's talk about your business.
430
:Let's talk about how that
that book can help you.
431
:I mean, I'm gonna ask some
questions and you can share.
432
:With me as well and ask me questions
after that call if you have any materials.
433
:Now, like I said before, most people
do they have something, even if it's
434
:just something written down, um, I say,
send that to me and let me review it
435
:and then I'll give you my, my thoughts
on that and write up a proposal.
436
:I do that for free for people because
I like reviewing what they have and
437
:if I can help catalyze something, even
if they don't work with me, it's like,
438
:honestly, that, that's great 'cause
I, I'm obsessed with books again.
439
:So happy to do that.
440
:But then in that.
441
:I write up a proposal, what it would
look like to work together, whether
442
:that's in the ghost writing the full
book, or whether that's you tell me.
443
:Okay.
444
:Actually, I do have the time.
445
:I wanna spend some time, um, writing.
446
:So you, we could, we could enter
into a book coaching, uh, agreement.
447
:Um, and that's what I would
write the proposal for and then.
448
:We can agree to work together or not.
449
:And then we get started and what
getting started looks like is having
450
:interviews together in the, if, if
we're going for the, let's sort talk
451
:about the full book Ghost writing.
452
:Uh, we have interviews together over Zoom.
453
:You send me voice notes over WhatsApp.
454
:It's kind of like, it's
whatever people want.
455
:And I said that because the main
process that I like is to do Zoom,
456
:but I had a guy one time that said,
Jordan, I don't have time for that.
457
:I wanna just send you answers to
questions over voice notes when I can.
458
:Totally fine.
459
:I love that.
460
:We don't.
461
:Need to have weekly check-ins.
462
:If, if you don't, if you don't
have the capacity for that.
463
:But generally it's one
to two hours a week.
464
:We're gonna get on a call.
465
:I'm gonna interview you.
466
:It's basically like a
podcast interview like this.
467
:We're just doing it for.
468
:A few months, um, to,
to start the process.
469
:We're gonna get on at least once a week,
so if you're comfortable with podcasts,
470
:you podcast calls, you'd be comfortable
doing ghost writing interviews.
471
:And then I get started, create that out.
472
:We work on the outline collaboratively,
and then eventually I get
473
:started on writing the book.
474
:And there's, of course there's
complexity and multiple
475
:layers, layers in that process.
476
:But that's basically what it looks like.
477
:And then typically you
get, I finish the book.
478
:Anywhere from six months to a year.
479
:I tell people, Hey, if we're all
in on this, we're working on it.
480
:Six months is reasonable.
481
:If we, if it needs to
take a year, that's fine.
482
:Obviously with me too, it just
depends on how, how involved you wanna
483
:be, what the timeframe looks like,
when you need that book out there.
484
:Uh, if you have a set date
that you, I wanna get it out
485
:before the speaking engagement.
486
:Okay, maybe we can work to push for that.
487
:But it just depends on, on everyone's
specific need as far as timeline goes.
488
:John: Yeah.
489
:Okay.
490
:So that gives us some insight.
491
:Thank you.
492
:And, um, if, if, let's say I, maybe
you've had, have had this situation,
493
:somebody just comes along and says,
Hey Jordan, I really would like
494
:you to, to write the book for me.
495
:Um, here's a whole ton of
my articles and content.
496
:Take it away.
497
:Go write the book.
498
:Or here's, uh, a hundred podcast
episodes going Hide from that.
499
:Will you be like, ah, go on a minute,
or would you be like, no, I can do that.
500
:We can work with that.
501
:Jordan Ring: So I would definitely say,
hang on a minute at first, like, let's
502
:at least talk about what that looks like.
503
:'cause I don't want it to be a
relationship where it's not collaborative.
504
:'cause I think some people have a
bad view of ghost writing and it's,
505
:it's those kinds of more like work,
like job task, um, ways of looking
506
:at it that kind of, uh, you know,
push that myth forward of like.
507
:I don't, I want this book
to sound like my voice.
508
:I want it to sound like me.
509
:I want it to tell my stories.
510
:And if you just say, okay,
here's all this stuff.
511
:Go ahead, write it, and then
don't review it till the very end.
512
:That's different.
513
:Now, if you're gonna be in there, and I
don't really wanna have calls every week,
514
:but I do have a ton of material, that's
definitely something I could work on.
515
:As long as you're gonna be in the
document, at least, you know, one to two
516
:hours a week or whatever we decide on.
517
:I just don't want it to be
me sitting in the background,
518
:like just doing it for someone.
519
:I could, I could do that, but I
don't wanna do that because I,
520
:I want the book to be theirs.
521
:Right?
522
:I want it to be your story
and what you have to share.
523
:Um, and I think if it's just me
making all of those decisions, like
524
:I said before, I could do that.
525
:But it's like, it's not, I don't feel
like that would be gen genuine to
526
:what you would have to offer in that
527
:John: Yeah.
528
:So at at what point.
529
:In the, in working with somebody, do
you generally feel that you've pretty
530
:much got their, their voice and, and
you can write from that perspective?
531
:Jordan Ring: Pretty quick voice is an
interesting question because a lot of
532
:people think it's something that has to
be discovered, that has to be discovered.
533
:I think some people would disagree
with me on this, but my stance is
534
:that it's not something discovered.
535
:It's something we get
to create along the way.
536
:Unless you're already a writer and
have a ton of written articles out
537
:there, that's a little bit different.
538
:But if you're just a speaker, not just
a speaker, but if you're a speaker,
539
:if you've been on podcast episodes,
yeah, you have a way of speaking, but
540
:we get to decide what we want that.
541
:We want that writing voice to be, uh,
in the book because again, the book
542
:voice is gonna be a little bit different
than it would be on a LinkedIn post or
543
:you know, any other social media post.
544
:So it's a decision generally that,
but we get to work on it together.
545
:And that means, that means feedback
and, and you telling me, Hey Jordan,
546
:this doesn't sound like me at all.
547
:Okay, great.
548
:I love that feedback.
549
:'cause then I can use that and,
and, you know, build the voice,
550
:uh, how we want it from there.
551
:John: I'm curious what kind of
expectations your clients tend to
552
:have coming into the process, and
then how they, how they feel, and,
553
:um, maybe what their expectations more
the are at the end of the process.
554
:Jordan Ring: You mean expectations on
like how, how the process is gonna go
555
:or how it's gonna all work together?
556
:John: Yeah.
557
:Kind of that, but also expectations
for what the book can do for them
558
:or, uh, why, why they're having
the, the book in the first place.
559
:Right.
560
:What, what do you tend to encounter that?
561
:Jordan Ring: No, that, that's
a, that's a great question.
562
:'cause some people will come to me
and ask right away, like, Hey Jordan,
563
:how many copies are we gonna sell?
564
:And we can talk about that and what
the marketing's gonna look like.
565
:Um, but really I try to bring people
back and say, okay, most books that
566
:are out there don't sell that well.
567
:And of course we can.
568
:There's ways that we can go around that.
569
:But if you're just looking to start
the book, just to make it instant.
570
:Royalty Cash.
571
:ROI on that, that's different.
572
:Again, we wanna use the book
to, to support other offers,
573
:especially if, that's why I
think it fits well with coaches.
574
:'cause they already have offers.
575
:Maybe they even have a primary offer
that is a, a, a big ticket item.
576
:A book can be really helpful that
'cause you're building trust with
577
:anyone that reads it up until that.
578
:So one of those things that's hard to
measure, but I try to have that o that
579
:open and honest conversation about.
580
:How books can do and what
that, what that looks like.
581
:I would never come to someone and
say, okay, you pay for my services.
582
:It's gonna be an instant
five x on, on launch.
583
:No, um, not as far as
like just royalties go.
584
:John: Right.
585
:So a lot of people say, um, no try to go
the self-publishing rap these days anyway.
586
:Um, mainly, I think mainly because people
tend to view, in business, at least,
587
:tend to view books as loss, loss leaders.
588
:Um, but is that necessarily the case?
589
:Are there, are there instances
where people do actually.
590
:Make money off the book, or is it really
more about this is your positioning,
591
:this is your authority, you'll make
more money off it from like fees or from
592
:credibility, be able to raise your rates.
593
:So where does that fit for people?
594
:Jordan Ring: So, yes.
595
:So I, I try to have that honest
conversation about expectations, but yes,
596
:you can make money and people absolutely
do, uh, from that, from the launch of the
597
:book and from what it can help them with.
598
:You know, you get all the other stuff too.
599
:It's just doesn't always happen.
600
:And it's like, for all my clients,
it doesn't always happen because
601
:people have different marketing
budgets, different, different things
602
:that they want to do with the book.
603
:Some people just want that book out there
for those reasons of helping speaking.
604
:They say, Jordan, I, I'm just gonna
self-publish the book, put it out there.
605
:I'm not even gonna do any marketing.
606
:I just want the book.
607
:And for me, fine, great.
608
:Because you have those other things that
can help you with, uh, different than if
609
:someone is just starting a business or
doesn't have that high ticket offer, then.
610
:Writing, it might not be the best time
to write a book because of that, it,
611
:because it's harder to gain that the, you
know, the instant royalties from that.
612
:John: Yeah, sure.
613
:And I definitely, you know, especially
in, in my, in my time working with, uh,
614
:other coaching companies, especially
with places like the speaker lab
615
:where I worked before, but, um.
616
:One of the things that was often said
was that, um, that your, your book
617
:is your, is your best calling card.
618
:If you have a book, it's gonna be your,
your best business card, not calling Card
619
:point, but your, your best business card.
620
:And, um, and I, I, I pretty
much agree with that.
621
:I think it does sort of, uh, just having,
having a book even with people read it or
622
:not even it just sat in their bookshelf.
623
:Says a lot about you and, and keeps
you in some degree in people's mind
624
:because people generally have this
reluctance to throw away books.
625
:People tend to want to keep them a
physical book on, on their shelf.
626
:And, and so I think, you know,
from that sort of perspective, it
627
:is, uh, very valuable resource in,
in potentially multiple levels.
628
:If you can make money off it
in other ways even better.
629
:But, um.
630
:We see a lot of people who go, well
bang on a lot about the, the Amazon
631
:bestseller, but I've also seen a million
other people say that, how to gain that
632
:system or, you know, people have even
published books with no content in them
633
:and got them onto Amazon bestsellers list.
634
:You know, how useful is something
like, uh, Amazon bestsellers or
635
:other bestseller lists these days?
636
:And is it worth trying to get onto them?
637
:Jordan Ring: Yeah.
638
:The whole bestseller conversation
to me is super interesting.
639
:'cause yes, it's so easy to game,
but I can't say that it's unimportant
640
:because of how people view those things.
641
:You, you gain this instant sense of
credibility when someone says, oh.
642
:If they're a bestselling author, which
you can say Amazon bestselling author,
643
:and again, that that system is fairly
easy to gain because you, all you
644
:need to do is just pick a category
that is not a lot of competition.
645
:Easy to be the number one in that
category, and then you're a number
646
:one Amazon best sell bestseller.
647
:Now, New York Times and what, you know.
648
:Yeah.
649
:And yeah.
650
:New York Times is harder to
obviously game that system.
651
:And there's, I've heard, and I've
seen people say like, Hey, you still
652
:can, if you, I mean, if you have
the money, right, I'm sure you can.
653
:Push toward that and get
those sales right away.
654
:Uh, but I mean, that's harder to gain.
655
:That, that, so New York Times bestseller
is definitely something to, to stand upon.
656
:John: Yeah, so they can be worthwhile
to have, but could you still have
657
:a successful book without that?
658
:Jordan Ring: Yeah, absolutely.
659
:I mean, I, I usually try to
say, tell people like, Hey,
660
:get that Amazon bestseller tag.
661
:You can at least say that.
662
:And that's, that's pretty simple process.
663
:You just pick the right category, sell
a few books on your launch and, and
664
:most coaches that are gonna launch
a book are gonna be able to do that.
665
:Um, but otherwise, no, it's
not something to necessarily
666
:worry about or, or even pursue.
667
:Now you can, if you have a marketing
budget and wanna shoot for that,
668
:like fantastic, that's only gonna
help you excel to the next level.
669
:But as far as, as far as needing
it for a success or needing
670
:it as a reason to, or, yeah.
671
:Looking at it as like, uh, my book
won't be a success unless I have that.
672
:No, definitely not.
673
:John: What, what are the kinds of things
other than bestseller books then these
674
:days that, that do work to help promote
a book and, and increase the sales?
675
:Jordan Ring: Yeah, so my favorite way
to promote the book is to give it away.
676
:And that's another thing that's not a
lot of people, not, not a lot of ghost
677
:writers, and people will share that.
678
:But for me it's that, like I have my book
in the back, my in the background here.
679
:I went to a conference,
uh, a couple weeks ago.
680
:I gave
681
:not that many copies away.
682
:I gave eight signed copies away.
683
:For me, that was enough.
684
:Those people have those books.
685
:And just for your example, I have,
someone gave me their book and I have
686
:it sitting on right next to my couch.
687
:Haven't read a word of it, but it's
been sitting there the whole time.
688
:Every time I walk by I'm like,
oh, that's, that's their book.
689
:And I think of that person and
it, there is something powerful to
690
:that where like business cards that
I got, yeah, those are all gone.
691
:I threw those away
before I even flew back.
692
:John: Does anyone still do those?
693
:I'm, I'm not sure.
694
:I guess, I guess they still happen, but
695
:Jordan Ring: Yeah, like,
I got some, but yeah.
696
:But a book is just, you know, it's,
it's very powerful Now, I dunno if
697
:that answers your question, but Yeah.
698
:John: No, it, it, it really does.
699
:And I think you've done a nice job of
sort of giving us a sense of, of the
700
:process and, and why we might want
to do that and what the, uh, ultimate
701
:benefits would, would probably be for
someone who's, who's in coaching, who
702
:wants to advance their credibility in.
703
:Potentially even make some
more money from Bert Rich.
704
:And we too often hear that
you just can't do that.
705
:So it's nice to hear you're
saying no, that's not the case.
706
:You, you can, you can sometimes,
not always, but sometimes.
707
:Um, is there anything I should have
asked you that I haven't included so far
708
:that, well, coaches probably need to hear
this in terms of getting their book out.
709
:Jordan Ring: I think we, I think we
talked about it a little bit, but I just
710
:wanna reiterate, like, hey, if you're a
person that says, I, I don't have time
711
:and, and, um, I don't have the desire
to write it, but you wanna write a book?
712
:Yeah.
713
:Someone like me can help with that.
714
:But if you're someone that
says, no, I, I really want.
715
:To do the writing process, you know,
you can get help with a book coach or
716
:you can go in and, and do that yourself.
717
:There's no limiting, there's no like, oh,
I, I'm not a writer, so I can't do that.
718
:Maybe you can't do it in six
months, but if it's something that
719
:you take the time and, um, become
dedicated to it, become disciplined.
720
:I, I feel that anyone.
721
:Can, can do that.
722
:And then eventually, once you have that
manuscript, you can get help with editing
723
:at the end and get manuscript reviews
from, from other people and, and all that.
724
:But it's not, it's not something people
need to feel afraid of or limited.
725
:Everyone has enough words inside them.
726
:They difficult at first when you sit
down, of course, to get those out.
727
:But as the, the words get
rolling, you know, you can get
728
:in, in, uh, into that process.
729
:John: Yeah, I, I love that you're,
you're helping us, um, eliminate
730
:all the excuses for why we might
not have a book, which is, which
731
:is a great way to, to move forward.
732
:So I do appreciate that, and you,
you've very definitely taken us
733
:through the process and, and through
all the things we might be thinking
734
:about that relate to this, I think
in the most important elements.
735
:We may have listeners who are
thinking, well, I think, yeah, maybe
736
:I'd like to reach out to someone
like Jordan and, and see if they
737
:can help me get my book written.
738
:What's gonna be the best
way for 'em to do that?
739
:Jordan Ring: Best ways to.
740
:My website, which is jm ring.com.
741
:Uh, or if you want to connect with me on
LinkedIn, I'm there pretty much every day.
742
:You can just search for Jordan
Ring Ghostwriter, or I think
743
:my tag is Author JM Ring.
744
:Um, or just, yeah, search for Jordan Ring.
745
:And, uh, you should be
able to find me there.
746
:Um, and yeah, just connect with me.
747
:Anyone that dms me, sends me a direct
message on LinkedIn, I'm happy to
748
:send a free copy of my book too.
749
:More than happy, just let me know that
you came from this podcast and I'll
750
:be like, yeah, here's, here's a copy.
751
:I'll even send you a print copy too.
752
:Don't mind doing that at all.
753
:I love sending books out.
754
:'cause again, for me, the, the
marketing piece of books is, is
755
:giving them away and having that
just say, Hey, here's my knowledge.
756
:Get to know me a little bit
and get to know my systems
757
:and processes and everything.
758
:So, uh, happy to do that.
759
:John: Oh, that's very cool.
760
:Very kind of you as well.
761
:And I, for those of us on, uh, who
are, uh, on video right now, we
762
:can see you, you have your book
Nonfiction Alchemy Behind You there.
763
:Um, but is that book available for anyone
who sort of think, yeah, I'd like to know
764
:a bit more about this before I, I move
forward, or I do a bit of a deeper dive?
765
:First,
766
:Jordan Ring: Yeah, you can find
the links for that on my website,
767
:but you can get it anywhere.
768
:Books are sold, pop on Amazon.
769
:It, it's up for sale there.
770
:Uh, or can even download
the audiobook edition.
771
:I, I narrated and recorded that
and figured and did that myself.
772
:So if you wanna hear my, if, if you happen
to like my voice and wanna hear it more,
773
:you can download the audiobook editions.
774
:John: I am a big, big fan
of audio books, Jordan.
775
:I might just do that myself.
776
:Awesome.
777
:Well thank you so much for coming and
showing all of this today, and certainly
778
:much appreciate you helping coaches
get their voices out there more and
779
:get those books out into the world
and, uh, further their businesses.
780
:And, uh, maybe we'll have to bring
you back another time when Angie's
781
:feeling better to, uh, to, to talk,
uh, to talk a bit more about getting,
782
:getting the books done and, and
anything else you might be working on.
783
:But for now, thank you for
coming on the Coaching Clinic.
784
:Jordan Ring: Awesome.
785
:Thanks so much for having me.
786
:Super appreciate it.
